It looks like my comments over at MsPhD’s blog have sparked quite a reaction … to the point where she has dedicated an entire post to me.
I’m touched. Really, I am.
If you want to see the whole shebang for yourself, check out the original post and then the rant.
In response to the maniacal tirade, there are some points I would like to make, after all, this is my blog and I can say whatever I damned well like.
1. We are all responsible for our own destiny.
As with River Tam, I had a couple of strokes of luck that have opened the odd door here or there, but I think RT would agree that we have worked our asses off to take advantage of those opportunities and that we both deserve to be in the positions we are in today. I grew up in a working class environment and have had some really sucky things happen in my life, but I went out and made things happen rather than sitting back and blaming the system.
2. We all have options.
The options I suggested for MsPhD were plentiful and varied. She accused me of not being creative with the suggestions but I fail to see how one could do that. I think it was because the list of options I presented to her were things that others had already proposed and that she was not willing to consider. I’m at a loss to know how to respond. If you don’t like the options that I, and others, have proposed, I’d really like to hear what else you think could be done. MsPhD, if you’d be “happier quitting science completely than continuing on with any sort of lame-ass bullshit” then go ahead and do it. You have options. You are responsible for your own life. Nobody’s going to give you a job just because you feel as though you deserve it.
3. Science is not a care bears fucking tea party.
I only quote from the best. You’re quite correct in that nobody cares about what you have to contribute to science, it’s all about what you actually DO contribute. Talking about how much you COULD contribute if someone just gave you half a chance won’t get you anywhere.
4. Take advantage of the wealth of talent and experience that surround you.
I'm certainly not referring to myself, but there are great sources of information, help and advice everywhere. Here in the blogosphere, there are a plethora of people who are more than willing to provide honest, helpful and wise advice. If you don't have a mentor who is mentoring you to your satisfaction, find someone else who will.
On a final note, I’m stunned, although not entirely surprised, at MsPhD’s parting shot:
“Fuck you, NIH and grad school.”
Concise and constructive.
Good luck with the job seeking.
It's catching
10 hours ago
A remarkably polite response, considering.
ReplyDeleteClearly MsPhD is having a very rough time... but I think we all know that getting an academic job is not just about your talent or your hard work, but about luck and 'fit' too - some very good people do not get faculty posts. Equally, some very good people go through law school and the bar etc. and slog away as an employee and never make partner. Or go through medical school and residencies and don't get to be a consultant. Inevitably, there are losses at every level of the pyramid and at each point in time we all make choices about persisting or 'settling' or moving on or redefining goals.
Luck, hard work, and grabbing your destiny by the balls. My story is full of luck - but frankly part of that luck was created because I made my own luck by being good, working hard, and making the most out of every opportunity I was presented with. When I have hit rough patches, people have taken "chances" on me because I'm productive. And when life has run me off my chosen path, I have been strategic about how to get back to where I wanted to be. (and by strategic, I don't mean being that slimy networking person we all have in our lives, but actually spending time and thought about what we want from life, whether we are on the path to get it, and if not what we need to do to change our circumstances.)
ReplyDeleteKeep fighting the good fight, PiT
P.S. I've been enjoying reading about your transition to asst prof. Reminds me of my first year!
It's interesting since I've read both your answers and MsPhD's posts and I thought they were quite constructive and based in reality, from both sides.
ReplyDeleteI do know what it feels like to be in a hole (again, many PhDs do that). I do know what it's like to be in a bad place (post docing isn't all roses). And I do know what it's like to go to a therpaist [imagine that huh?].
The key thing is that it is hard to internalise the "you can do some things but most likely your Dream that you had won't fall into place and it's not your fault, it's not their fault, it just wasn't as They told you". I don't think I will be a Professor anymore. It was my Dream, and I felt sooooo screwed over when I sat the last year of my PhD and it sucked. I realised that my projects had been a tad bit on the flop side, the other PhD student had more help and better projects and are on a tt track... he also got along great with the prof and the prof's prof friends.
What did I do? I left the country, went for an international post doc and decided not to become too bitter about it.
Truth is, like JaneB says too, that it is a bit about "being in the right place at the right time" and having a bit of luck in the research/job searches.
The hard thing is to find a way out of the Bad environment and actually get a good letter of recommendation and maybe reasses how the road will be traveled.
a long comment but I felt the need to have some background. I wish MsPhd the best and I am amazed you wrote such a calm/polite response [without making it personal _per se_].
Yeah, MsPhD rants again, and clearly demonstrates the attitude that makes it highly unlikely that she will ever get a faculty position. Fit or not, no one wants to hire someone who comes across as that bitter, and the bitterness does come across. Its the i'm better than everyone else attitude that gets me the most.
ReplyDeleteHere's the thing: feeling trapped is just a fear of change. Nobody is ever ACTUALLY a slave to a horrible PI. Sure, it's scary, it's painful, it might be bankruptcy- or unemployment-benefits-inducing, but there is ALWAYS something else one could do instead of what is torturing them.
ReplyDeleteSnapping and biting at the people trying to hand you some healthy food is childish and unproductive, and there's never any legitimate excuse for it except maybe mental illness. If people don't want the advice, they can just ignore it. If they know deep down the SHOULD be following it and feel insecure about that, that's when they lash out.
For whatever it's worth: I thought your comments and suggestions were perfectly sensible. I have had rough encounters myself with junior scientists self-declared "stuck" in postdoctoral positions, claiming to be "desperate" to get out and move on with their lives, who reacted scornfully at my suggestion that they consider applying to second-tier institutions (which is what I did, including teaching-only ones).
ReplyDelete"But I deserve way more than THAT !". What can you do ? They'll grow up, sooner or later...
I think both you and Ms PhD have valid points, you are just from two radically different perspectives. When you are deep down in the swamp hole with R.O.U.S.'s on your ass and someone tells you all these delightfully disgusting options before you, well, it kind of blows. But from the perspective of someone looking down into the hole it's like, well get the hell out of there NOW.
ReplyDeleteSome people just aren't cut our for this bizness. Yes, it sucks to figure it out late but sometimes later is better than never.
ReplyDeleteYou can't always get what you want, but sometimes, you may find, you get what you need.
And sometimes what you need is a kick in the ass, to make you get on with your life and get into a happier place. There is so much that a trained scientist can do other than bench work. Go to the FDA and work on IRB approvals, consult for a law firm or investment company, be an editor for a journal, etc etc. So much more. Get out there and stop your whining, that isnt going to get you anyone anywhere. And if you are in a place where they dont appreciate you then leave!!!
I have no patience for people who stay in places where they aren't wanted/needed/enjoying themselves.
This person needs to realize that they didnt make it over that last hurdle. But its OK! Find your inspiration in another direction. Plenty of more places to go.
There's also a game people play - as in the book "Games People Play," an old book with some good points. The game: "What If, Yes But" - where the player asks for advice, and the playee gives advice. The player gets satisfaction in being able to come up with reasons why the advice won't work. As in, "What if you... [advice]" - then - "Yeah, that's good advice, BUT...".
ReplyDeleteAnd the game goes on as long as you keep offering advice. Most initiators don't know they are playing it, but it can be good to be aware of how to stop it - no more advice! Of course, sometimes good advice can't be taken for many reasons, so I'm not saying not to ever offer advice. But it can be easy to get sucked in.
And a mild game of it with friends can be okay. :)
I too thought your advice to MsPhD was right on the money--and I'm also not all surprised at her response. Time after time her readers have tried giving her advice, only to be shot down. If the persona she exhibits on her blog is anywhere near what she's like in real life, she's not going to go anywhere. Part of growing up is realizing that you may not get everything you want, no matter how hard you work. The real sign of maturity is how you adapt to that realization.
ReplyDeleteWow--Silver Fox, you totally nailed it.
I would have thought it was obvious that if you want a job in science then you might have to supply some evidence that you can in fact produce some science.
ReplyDeleteFrancis Crick put it this way. If you don't publish then you might as well have spent the last few years digging your garden.
If I can get 20+ papers published by the end of my third postdoc year then surely someone who has enough time to blog all day can manage 2 or 3 in twice the amount of time.
There's no such fucking thing as tenure or tenure track for research scientists in my country. Publish or perish and sometimes publish and perish anyway.
Think carefully, work your arse off and then hope you get lucky- if you don't then have a moan about it.
Do not attempt these activities in the reverse sequence.
To everyone: yes, I decided that a calm and polite response was the best way to go. You can't offer help to those who clearly don't want it and I'm done wasting my time.
ReplyDeleteIf one of the anonymous people here is the Anon 12:39PM commenter from MsPhD's blog:
(1) I'm flattered but also a little freaked out that you consider me to be a mentor :)
(2) I may have a TT job, but I busted my ass to earn it, was the right person for the right job at the right time and I'm working my ass off to make sure that I succeed. This position was NOT handed to me on a plate. Just wanted to make sure that fact was very, very clear. Check back in a few days as I'll try to post on how I went about the job search and the alternate plans I had set in place in case I didn't get a position.
And microfool: if you happen to be reading this, I was actually hoping that MsPhD had meant that statement to be read as "Fuck you PiT".
Oh, and River Tam: things get easier after the first year right? Please say that they do.
Prof in Training, yes, they really do get easier. I promise. It's never easy, but you probably have figured that out by now :). But things get easier, you learn how to send mail and make xerox copies, ordering becomes second nature, you learn what needs your attention and what you honestly can let slide...in general almost 100% of the things you do this year will be done for the first time, but next year those things are routine and only 50% will be new! Hang in there!
ReplyDeleteA very restrained response. MsPhD is an angry woman who spends far too much time feeling sorry for herself and blaming everyone else for her own failings. It's quite obvious why she is struggling to find work, 5 minutes reading her blog tells you all you need to know. Your advice was considered and sound, and recently qualified scientists would do well to heed it.
ReplyDeleteThe thing you have to understand is that MsPhD is not looking for advice. She is looking for people to affirm her belief that it is only "the system" that is keeping her from achieving her goals. The purpose of her blog is to provide a venue for people to agree with her about how if "the system" weren't fucked up, she'd have a tenure-track position at Harvard.
ReplyDeleteIgnoring the more obnoxious comments here... actually the person who pointed out my grammatical error was correct. The "fuck you" was not directed at you, PiT, just at NIH and grad school. That was my biggest panda mistake to date, I think.
ReplyDelete(But I'm sure that everyone, CPP included, has said "fuck you" to NIH more than once.)
However, I want to reiterate one thing. It's not that I haven't CONSIDERED all these suggestions before. In fact, had you really read my blog, you'd know that I've not only considered them all, I've written at length all my considerations of them. And tried quite a few if not quite all.
And one other thing. I'm not entirely surprised at your complete lack of belief that anybody could have had a hard time besides you.
I find myself falling into this same trap from time to time when people come to me whining about scheduling committee meetings, like that's the biggest problem they've ever encountered.
I suspect you can imagine that in getting through your hard times, it has hardened you. Some people respond that way. I don't. I respond by wanting to fix the system (CPPs aside) so that other people don't have to go through what I went through.
Yeah, it's naive and stupid, etc. But I'm not going to change that about myself, no matter how much okham and these other fuckers try to say I need to 'grow up.'
As far as your career goes, I think it's fine to take credit for making your own luck, but you have to admit that some people are just luckier than others. There IS bias in the system and if you fall on the wrong side of that, you need a lot more luck to get over the wall.
It's both good and bad that I can't blog about the ROUSes I've encountered and how I overcame them all one way or another, some more successfully than others. Let's just say I've been around the block. I'm not nearly as whiny and spoiled as some casual readers might think from my blog.
If I diss some advice now, it's because I've tried most of the things on the list already, and so far none of them have worked. That's why I'm looking for more creative solutions.
So, I guess I'm trying to say that I'm sorry I went off on you like that. But you need to be a little less condescending, a little more interested in fixing the system instead of blaming the victims, and realize that not everyone is lazy compared to you.
You didn't get where you are JUST because you worked hard. As JaneB pointed out, there are a lot of luck factors involved and you should be grateful that you had enough to get you where you are. And hope that you have enough for you to keep moving up.
And yes, some people really do have really bad luck. Believe it. And just hope that you still have enough grit left to get you through if it does.
Or that somebody like me is around to take pity on you when you're feeling down. I won't judge you if you mess up. Just don't assume I'm a lazy idiot.
K? thx.
Response to MsPhD’s comments:
ReplyDeleteI'm not entirely surprised at your complete lack of belief that anybody could have had a hard time besides you.
I don’t ever recall suggesting this, just that you have to deal with what comes along and do something about improving the situation.
I suspect you can imagine that in getting through your hard times, it has hardened you.
On the contrary, it has made me a much stronger person. And if you had read my blog, you'd know that I'm not a hard person at all.
As far as your career goes, I think it's fine to take credit for making your own luck, but you have to admit that some people are just luckier than others. There IS bias in the system and if you fall on the wrong side of that, you need a lot more luck to get over the wall.
I acknowledged luck in my post, I never suggested that the system wasn’t biased and I was very clear that hard work was required to make things happen.
If I diss some advice now, it's because I've tried most of the things on the list already, and so far none of them have worked. That's why I'm looking for more creative solutions.
If you want to stay in academia, there aren’t too many other solutions that I (or anyone else for that matter) am aware of. Sitting back and waiting for someone else to come up with a solution will still leave you sitting in postdoc misery.
So, I guess I'm trying to say that I'm sorry I went off on you like that.
No apologies necessary. You’re entitled to your opinion and we all need to vent from time to time.
… you need to be a little less condescending, a little more interested in fixing the system instead of blaming the victims, and realize that not everyone is lazy compared to you.
I think I was a tad more realistic than condescending. The system won’t be fixed overnight. It’s going to take people with strong, positive attitudes to make that happen. At NO point in my blog have I suggested that everyone is lazy compared to me, just that some people have approached things in a different way that may not be working for them.
You didn't get where you are JUST because you worked hard. As JaneB pointed out, there are a lot of luck factors involved and you should be grateful that you had enough to get you where you are. And hope that you have enough for you to keep moving up.
Ummmm … did you actually read the post? See point 1.
And yes, some people really do have really bad luck. Believe it.
Again, did you actually read the post? I’m aware of this. See point 1 (again).
In summary: you only see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. You DO have options and the fact that you have considered and discarded them in favor of whining about your lack of perceived options shows a definite lack of maturity and understanding about how academia works.
The smug condescending tripe from PiT and some other commentators here is a bit much. You are so sure you deserve to be where you are and YFS deserves to be where she is... all this talk about your "hard work" (more than the unsuccessful applicants?), "grabbing your destiny by the balls" (more so than the others?), the people taking chances on you because you were "productive" (ever reflect on the subjectivity involved in that, whether there might have been others who were more productive, more deserving of having a chance taken on them?), being the "right person for the right job at the right time" (no room for subjectivity there either, right?) etc etc. And all this while Ms.PhD was just sitting around being an angry woman, feeling sorry for herself, blaming everyone else for her own failings, too irrational to appreciate all your wonderful advice.
ReplyDeleteWhat we have here is a bunch of people who have been admitted through the gate turning around and trying to lecture someone who hasn't on how she needs to just "accept her lot" in life and deal with it. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the ones doing the lecturing all happen to have been let through the gate themselves. No doubt their sentiments are shared by all sensible people. Only an ignorant whiner would suggest an analogy with the gentry of medieval Europe lecturing peasants on how they should accept their lot in life without expecting a fucking care bears tea party (or more precisely, without expecting a fucking invitation to the gentry's fucking care bears tea party) and just make the most of all the wonderful opportunities available to them. As all sensible people know, that would be such a false analogy because in academic science we have equal opportunity and meritocracy, and whatever shortcomings or bad luck there might be can be overcome by working hard enough and grabbing destiny sufficiently firmly by the balls.
There are other possible reactions to YFS's blog besides the one on display here. For example, this one: "Wow, for some smart, hard-working and talented young researchers it can really be a nightmare trying to make a career in academic science these days. Lucky me for having had a better experience." No chance of a reaction like that from you lot though.
Response to ancient physics postdoc:
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that there are far fewer junior faculty positions than there are postdocs. Period. If you’ve made it to the postdoc level, you’ve already shown intellect, ability, determination and persistence but obviously that’s not going to be enough to get you into the 10 or 15% that make it from postdoc to junior faculty. My point was NOT that I (or the other commenters who you so obviously also despise) were more hard working, productive or lucky, just that you have to do everything possible to put yourself at the top of the list of candidates seeking a junior faculty position.
You’re quite right in that there are talented, productive and promising postdocs out there who aren’t making it to the next career level for whatever reason. That’s not going to change. My point is/was that these people have to do everything within their power to change their circumstance, whether that be through changing labs, changing projects, changing fields, whatever. The criteria for getting a faculty position are usually quite transparent and relatively universal (productivity as evidenced through publications, if it’s a teaching position, some teaching experience is often helpful and funding will always get you noticed) so addressing those criteria should be the goal of every postdoc by whatever means necessary.
Grad students and postdocs need to be realistic about their chances of becoming faculty and if they are consistently finding themselves not being at the top of the list of candidates, they need to find alternative career paths. Beating your head up against a brick wall asking to be given an opportunity won’t result in anything but a huge motherfucking headache.
You don’t know me and you don’t know the twisty, windy road I’ve taken to get to this point so don’t start making snarky assumptions that I’m offering condescending advice to those less fortunate than myself while I stand in my ivory tower showered with gold. I’ve had to backtrack and take several alternate paths to get to where I am today and that is what I’m advocating, even if that path leads to a completely different career.
What myself and other bloggers and commenters have attempted to do is to provide suggestions based on our own experiences … if you want to know how to run a marathon, ask a marathon runner, don’t ask the person who sits on the couch contemplating what it would be like to run that far. If you don’t like what you are seeing, feel free to voice your opinions (I don't moderate comments here) and then fuck off and join MsPhD’s gripe-fest.
Hey Ancient Physics Postdoc. You and MsPhD should hook up - you'd have an awesome time! Just imagine the conversations...
ReplyDeleteI have read some of both your blogs as well as MsPhD's.
ReplyDeleteFirst let me say it is great to see post-doc & professors blogging, when I was a post-doc the mindset was if you've any extra time, you come to the lab & run gels, even oing to the library for reading up on literature was frowned upon; & blogging? Would have been regarded as juveline, time-wasting & (horror-of-horrors) socially interactive activity!!
Anyway, I've been a recent reader of MsPhD's blog, & you gave her very good advice. While I was initially sympathetic to her situation, the more I read, the more I found a person who wants to be a victim rather than face up to a reality that may not coincide with her worldview. But what bother me is her puristic, elitist & really unrealistic view of herself & of post-doc. I once commented to her an option may be to leave research altogether (as I did) & reminded her in any country-especially capitalist-there is limited funding for basic research (a nonprofit activity), but she lives in a world where (1)anything other than pure research is unacceptable, teaching is for losers, biotech is lame-ass (2) she is not having much success (3)but she deserves it (why? because she is young female scientist!)(4) therefore it is the fault of the system, this sexist society, her PI, reviewers, maybe even Presidents Reagan & Bush. After reading more of her posts spanning >2 yrs, I realized you suggestions would not make any difference she doesn't want real advice (which is OK, we write blogs for difference reasons), but what she wants are fellow-'victims' - enablers!
It was so refreshing to read "Ancientphysics..."' post. I daresay this was a case of someone from a "real science" like physics taking on the tyros from one that has been debased to a fake. Such, it seems, is biology... you add the same numbers in a different order until you get your favourite number. Then you go ahead and report this pre-chosen favourite number as the actual result and ignore the fact that numbers should always add up to the same result no matter what the order.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed how physics guy made the truly incisive comments... no soup of banalities, no spouting of smugness, no show of anger bordering on insanity, no obscenities...
Physics guy hit your method, questioned your assumptions and destroyed your show. I bet it has burned PiT pretty deep, hasn't it?
I bet it has burned PiT pretty deep, hasn't it?
ReplyDeleteYeah. I'm all torn up about it.
Good...all you managed was a "yeah ...right" sarcasm like a high school girl. When you come up for tenure, you might just receive some advice from people who happened to be the "right people for the right job at the right time"... unless of course you are at some backwater where tenure track is pretty much it...
ReplyDeleteAnon: you can sling as much unconstructive mud as you like from behind your anonymous shield. You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. You clearly aren't familiar with me or with my blog because if you were, you would know that I'm very open to suggestions and advice. The original point of this post was to address a disagreement I'd had with MsPhD and I think we've both agreed to disagree. If you want to derail this post into a petty, personal slanging match, knock yourself out.
ReplyDeleteEr, it wasn't my intention to incite a flame war...
ReplyDeleteNormally I wouldn't have written what I wrote in the tone that I wrote it, but felt that PiT and others were being unreasonably harsh and dismissive of what MsPhD has to say. I wasn't planning to write anything more here, but just want to disassociate myself from the ravings of Anonymous. Dude, get a grip!