Here’s the situation … I’ll be submitting a proposal in a few weeks for a small ($60K/yr, 2yr max) non-NIH new investigator grant that I unsuccessfully applied for last year as a postdoc. (I’ve already
While last year's reviewers were overjoyed about the proposal, my potential and the research environment at Postdoc U, a couple of them were concerned about my ability to operate independently given how many bigwigs there were around me and that my then-department chair had stipulated that promotion to junior faculty was contingent on funding.
Fast forward to the present and I now have the junior faculty position at Really Big U but am now being advised by my former postdoc mentor, Dr J, as well as my new department chair, Dr K (who thinks the sun shines out of my ass btw … and rightly so), that I need to include collaborators as “the appearance of a support system for a junior investigator is a good thing, especially if this is a grant for new investigators”.
Hmmm.
Dr K and I have been emailing back and forth all afternoon about this issue and what it entails.
I had already listed Dr J as a consultant on the project as he is a bigwig in the specific signaling mechanism I’m proposing to focus on but in a different field to his area of expertise. Dr K is writing a glowing letter in her role as department chair detailing my many amazing and fundworthy qualities.
We both finally agreed that instead of listing a bunch more people as collaborating investigators, it would be best if I approached Prof Big Cheese to see if he would be willing to lend his considerable professional weight to my application. I should point out that I’ve never met Prof Big Cheese but that he’s head of a big research center here at Really Big U to which I applied for membership and he has a squillion dollars in NIH cash, the most recent of which is for a faculty mentoring program. (I’ve also been assured that he’s been dying to meet me … and rightly so.)
Is it just me or is this like a dog chasing its tail?
As a postdoc, you aren’t considered to be independent because you’re surrounded by wonderful advisors and haven’t gotten the faculty job but once you get the faculty gig you need to have the advisors around to support your application for independent funding.
I guess this is all good practice as this is the proposal to which I’m going to add a third aim and submit as an R01 but it’s frustrating trying to figure out the right balance between independence and not.
Christ. I'm having the same shitty dog-chasing-tail discussions about a grant. Here's my deal... I'm writing up an NSF grant. My PhD advisor has current NSF bucks (lots) and I've got current NSF bucks (peanuts). I want to go at it alone... PI. I have 20 papers to back up my experience. I can do the project in my sleep. All the letters of support are fantastic. PhD advisor and I are the only 2 people who work on this stuff - the letters of support are about facility use, broader impact, trainee support, etc.
ReplyDeleteI've been told by colleagues that 1) I need to include PhD advisor as a co-PI (which would lend to the "she's not independent" argument -argggh) and 2) that including PhD advisor might jinx my grant because he's got big NSF bucks already. Friggin annoying.
And I really HATE having to list BigCheeses that I've never met or worked with just to get my project funded. It's similar to that argument about authorship - the more folks on a project, the less of a contribution it appears for each participant, and the part I really hate is that BigCheese gets the "credit" for just being present while I'm working my ass off. whine.
I'm curious as to what CPP (we could use some motherfucking advice here!), DM, etc think about this independence stuff for women. I'm chewing my tail off.
Not sure it's just a female issue here. I have been told something similar for a grant I am putting together. Unfortunately for me, I was asked to involve a colleague in a grant who is near retirement and has completely fallen off the face of the Earth. I've decided to go it alone, but have shored up my support letters with people who can fill a similar role. We'll see how it goes.
ReplyDeleteI agree that this is not a gender issue.
ReplyDeleteAs a postdoc, you aren’t considered to be independent because you’re surrounded by wonderful advisors and haven’t gotten the faculty job but once you get the faculty gig you need to have the advisors around to support your application for independent funding.
ReplyDeleteMy experience--both as a newly independent tenure-track faculty member and as a study section member--has been that this kind of shit doesn't help new investigators get R01s, and can hurt--as a "not truly independent" ding, a "big-wing is already well-funded" ding, and because if it is a true multiple-PI grant, then all PIs must be Early Stage Investigators to benefit administratively from the appurtenances of that designation (such as relaxed paylines). And Letters of Support from big-wigs at your own institution--"Professor in Training has rainbows and unicorns streaming out of her ass"--are completely ignored, and rightly so.
PP: those were my thoughts exactly. The upcoming grant is a new investigator mechanism but you can only list one PI - and that's me - the others are consultants and collaborators. The bigwigs are insisting that I need to show that I am establishing collaborative ties within my new institution. The chair is adamant that her letter of support will emphasize my capacity for independence and will clearly state that the support of Prof Big Cheese shows how valuable the school regards my potential.
ReplyDeleteI think it's bullshit personally but both of them, as well as my postdoc mentor, are all extremely well funded and are all of the same opinion so I think I'm going to have to concede on this one even though I don't really agree with it.
I think it's bullshit personally but both of them, as well as my postdoc mentor, are all extremely well funded and are all of the same opinion so I think I'm going to have to concede on this one even though I don't really agree with it.
ReplyDeleteWell, the good news is that so long as you are the sole PI, and it is very clear that you are a genuinely independent tenure-track PI, then it almost certainly won't hurt your application. The only danger is that someone on study section gets the idea that you are just a pawn of these bigshots, and they are using you to try to rake in more grant funding that they will really control.
Also, this is the 3rd submission of this proposal with the previous two submissions being done while I was at my postdoc institution. I'm hoping that that history as well as the fact that my two most recent publications clearly led to the hypothesis in this proposal will show that this is my work and that I'm not a puppet of the bigwigs and big cheeses at my current school.
ReplyDeleteFor me, it's first submission for the proposal, so if it gets canned with me as PI, and the reviewers tell me I need backup, then I'll add BigCheese, PhDAdvisor, +/or RetiredProf for the resubmission.
ReplyDeleteGood luck PiT and PLS. Thanks PP.
PiT> I know nothing of reality of grants but I do know something about people... Most people want to feel important and surely the people you are talking about are not risking anything by being on the grant application from you?
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying they are deliberatley dis-helping you, but I do think they are mainly thinking about themselves and it would look good for them to be "co-PIs" or "collaborators" with you.
Mind you, not only am I a bit paranoid but I am sure that sometimes it is very beneficiary for you to have collaborators with/or without money but I am not really sure that a start up grant for new PIs are the time!?!
then again, I don't know US grants. (and trust me, "back home" it is _so_ very different)
It's not really about other people trying to muscle in on my grants or wanting to pad their own cvs. The main issue is that junior faculty (in the basic sciences) need to establish their own independent research labs and it's difficult to convince grant reviewers that one is independent if there are a ton of other names attached to the grant, particularly if they are well-funded bigwigs. At the same time, one can't really exist in a research vacuum, particularly when trying to set up a research group from scratch and collaborators can help with things outside of your immediate area of expertise. I need to prove that I'm capable of operating independently but at the same time being a good collaborator and having a good support system around to help me if I need it. Frustrating.
ReplyDelete