The discussions about postdocs in the blogosphere of late seem to have polarized into those that absolutely loathed their postdoc time and those that found it to be fantastic.
I agree that unless you have found yourself in a lab from hell working for a PI who is a tyrannical asshole, you are unlikely to truly understand how postdocs can be exploited and burned. My own postdoc was not without problems and dramas but I wouldn’t say that it was hellish in any way.
But here’s the question ... what are we/you/I going to do to fix the situation? How can we make sure that others don’t suffer at the hands of fucknut PIs? How can we ensure that postdoctoral training is a rewarding learning experience?
A change at the institutional level is key but this isn’t likely to happen overnight. Nevertheless, here are a couple of ideas that would be relatively easily implemented:
1. Annual reviews performed by more people than just the PI
Maybe it's me being naive but hopefully this would force the PI to be more accountable for mentoring and training the postdoc. Part of the annual review could include identifying and setting project and career goals.
2. Setting a time limit on postdoc positions
Hopefully this would force both the postdoc and the PI to view it as a finite training period rather than an ongoing situation that often turns into exploitation of cheap labour.
3. A strong institutional commitment
A dedicated postdoc office that acts as an advocate for the postdoc and mediates conflicts and problems between postdocs and PIs. The office could also run regular seminars on career options, preparing CVs, interviewing, trainee symposia, etc.
4. Institutional recognition of postdocs
This includes treating postdocs as a valued part of the research team within their school. Leaving postdocs in the bizarro world in which they are neither student, staff nor faculty is complete bullshit.
Changes can also happen at the individual level, too.
For me as a new PI, the first step is to make sure that my own postdocs don’t experience the same problems that I did.
I’ve previously discussed the financial constraints associated with running a lab and that I simply can’t afford to pay my postdoc a huge salary but I do pay him more than the NRSA and he receives full benefits (exactly the same benefits as me).
I can’t make the science any easier but I can do whatever is within my power to give him all the tools he needs to be successful, including access to research assistants and students. He has his own project that he is developing within the broad framework of where I want my lab to go and we meet regularly to discuss his progress and plans.
For me, the bottom line is that there ARE good mentors out there and there ARE good postdoc training opportunities. If you’ve had a shitty postdoc experience yourself, you can make sure that your own postdocs don’t suffer as you did. Be a better mentor to your trainees than your PI was to you.
Blogging the lost
1 hour ago
"Annual reviews performed by more people than just the PI"
ReplyDeleteWe tried this at my PhD level school and the result tended to be more work for the student. It's very hard to convince people to intervene in a poor student experience and the result is to put the onus for fixing the situation on the student.
So I am a bit skeptical unless the review came from an actually independent body.
Interesting post, PiT.
ReplyDeleteMy grad institute implemented the annual review for postdocs. Basically, in order to extend the postdoc's appointment for another year, the postdoc had to fill out the FASEB IDP as recommended by the NPA. The PI was supposed to review it, meet with the postdoc to discuss it, and provide feedback/evaluation of the postdoc. In reality, PIs (some at least) paid little attention to it, seeming to view it as a waste of time.
Along with #3, if the postdocs can manage to form their own alliance, I've found that to be immensely helpful. For example, at my institution, we have a postdoc (and volunteer)-led research fellows association. They put on career seminars, social events and provide someone you can talk to about your postdoc experience (they let us senior grad students participate, too). In fact right now I'm part of an network where we review, anonymously, each other's writing - set up by the association. The postdocs are less isolated to their individual labs and have a social safety net. What I really like about this association is, since it's postdoc-led, it's something postdocs can do now at their institutions without having to wait for the whole system to change from the top.
ReplyDeleteAgreed PIT, and it sounds like you'd be a great postdoc mentor! :) Our PDO has initiated a lot of these changes in the past couple of years, but they haven't come without a lot of grumblings and growing pains for both PIs and postdocs. I think that (eventually) these changes will be beneficial, but it will take some time.
ReplyDeleteAlong with what QR said, a more important change (in my opinion) has been the PD Association that was initiated by this office. We provide seminars, training sessions and social interactions for the postdocs. Most importantly, we provide feedback to the PDO on how the policies are actually working, so that there's a two-way communication line. This has helped fine-tune some of the new policies so that they work better for the postdocs and PIs.
I had to do the annual IDP with my PI while a post-doc. It seemed silly at the time...but after I did it, we would have lunch and talk about things...and I always came out of said lunch witha pretty good idea of what had to be done to move my career forward. I do not yet have my own post-doc, but I am going to employ the same sort of plan...do an IDP, lunch, evaluate, move forward.
ReplyDeleteMy institution does all of these things, and it is continually rated one of the best places to do a postdoc.
ReplyDeleteNice post!
Institutional recognition would go a long, long way. That bizarro world sucks, especially when you get your own funding (which seems counterintuitive...) because then, at most places, you're not even considered an employee anymore and have no benefits or support from the university. They just take your indirect costs and kick you in the ass.
ReplyDeleteDear PiT,
ReplyDeleteas the math postdoc who wrote to you for advice (which you spun into a great blog post), I will just say that it's not like I am enjoying my postdoc...but it's okay. Getting crumbs from the big table... like trying to help the postdocs in tiny cosmetic ways...really wont do it for me at least. The real reason postdocs suck is because its a time when you are educated, no longer a student and caught in professional limbo that might last forever. I wont be getting any sleep anyway until the central problem is solved. And by definition, the central problem here has no solution. I'd much rather work my butt off and get to the next level instead of pondering whether my day would be more bearable if someone in the administration sent me a flower.
Just my thoughts.
AB
I had both a truly *foul* postdoc* and then a delightful second one, full of mentorship that continues to this day, support, freedom, but also rigourous critique and challange. Now I have two of my own, and I do spend bunch of time thinking about whether I'm treating them well, trying to make sure that service to the lab doesn't eat too much of their time, what else they might benefit from, and so on. Ironically, the first set of rules I used came from an old MsPhD post I recall, which said something like "pay them >$40K, provide lots of freedom and support, actively mentor and promote" - all of which seemed like good advice.
ReplyDeleteThe recent flurry of posts which seems to express a belief that as a new PI I suddenly forgot my own experience and/or am planning to ride on the backs of endentured postdocs - well, they alternately bemuse, amuse, and irritate.
[*When driving to work caused me to seriously contemplate driving into a tree to avoid getting there - well, it's time to go. I quit before finding a new position; the response from psycho boss was to refuse to publish my data and send me a note filled with profanity telling me that he would never speak to me again. So yeah, I've been there. Best thing about being a postdoc? You *can* quit. If I had been a grad student in that situation - urk.]
When I read articles like this, it more and more makes me think; boy, this is starting to sound like Grad School all over again. I had these requirements in my postdoc and I did feel like it was really grad school II rather than a stepping stone to independence. Maybe the problem starts with the fact that grad students are not truly being prepared such that all these safeguards and hand-holding need to be implemented at the postdoc level. Pretty soon, postdocs will be required to submit a research plan after 2-3 years and have it reviewed by their committee and then write a 100+ page document cataloging their body of work before they can "graduate" and get a independent position.
ReplyDeleteAnon 9.21: in some ways I agree that the postdoc, in the US at least, is becoming more and more like grad school. However, I strongly favor annual reviews as this is common for junior faculty and is a good way for the postdoc and their mentor(s) to track their progress. I'd also like to see postdocs be treated as pre-junior faculty and encouraged to engage in departmental activities and service. Postdocs are a vital part of the research environment of a school and should be treated as such.
ReplyDeleteWhere do I find out the standard rates of pay for postdoc researchers in biological sciences? What about for computer science, bioinformatics, physics? Thanks all!
ReplyDeleteTo Anaonymous above looking for standard rates of pay: check out www.glassdoor.com. After you post your own (anonymous) salary at your institution you will get access to the salary lists on the site. (fyi, they make an effort to obscure your identity if you are the only one posting in your category at your institution so you are protected.) I found the information quite useful in my recent search for postdoc positions and, hopefully, will again in my future faculty job search. Also, take advantage of the fact that salaries in state universities must be public. Several are even available online!
ReplyDeleteWhen I started my postdoc, a visiting professor said to me, "Wow. What a wonderful time. I enjoyed my postdoc. It was a great opportunity to think about nothing but science." What BS. I spend a lot of time thinking about how I scrape by every month, have no long-term job security, and work in a decrepit lab with malfunctioning equipment. I have to buy my own office supplies, computer supplies, and I've made various lab equipment from plexiglass and plumbing parts I bought at the hardware store. Meanwhile, I'm ignored by my PI until she talks about MY work at a conference, and needs a yearly update on what I've done. At least I have good health insurance!
ReplyDeletePostdoc Association: If you don't have one, form one. Support from your fellows can go a long way both fixing institutional faults and providing moral support.
ReplyDeletePostdoc Office: If you don't have one, form one. Having strong faculty advocates for postdoc training can help a lot, and might provide an ombudsman if you need one.
Work with your national organization: the NPA in the US (www.nationalpostdoc.org), the NRSA in the UK (http://vitae.ac.uk/), CAPS in Canada (http://sites.google.com/site/canadapostdoc/) etc. Admittedly no one organization is perfect, but change needs to happen from within and without and these organizations can give you a voice at the national level.
Use the FASEB IDP (as pointed out by Biochem Belle). Don't fucking bitch about "I'm not a grad student anymore" blah balh blah. The postdoc exerience is now so poorly managed and unfocused that most postdocs couldn't find the Tenure Track with both hands and a flash light even if they want to.
Most importantly, is instead of impotent whining about how unfair the system is, DO SOMETHING about it, locally, nationally, personally or professionally. Empower yourself.
Xpost to PLS.
Fortuitous timing. Young Female Scientist posted a link today regarding the NIGMS strategic planning for training and career development. Anyone-faculty, administrators, students, and current or former postdocs-can comment anonymously now through April 21. If you're in Philly, San Fran, Chicago, or Atlanta and want to share thoughts in person, there will be "stakeholder" meetings over the next few month. Plus a webinar in June. For more info,click here.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great post because it works towards thinking about solutions.
ReplyDeleteAnnual reviews are performed at SmallUniversity that I attend, but unfortunately the people there see them as nothing more than a mere formality. It's definitely a good idea to have a time limit except that when the time limit is up where does a postdoc go to? In such tough economic times, tt jobs are few, although postdocs are not.
I think the strongest place to ensure the postdoc experience facilitates an individuals career is to have institutional commitment to postdocs. But there has to be some accountability. What recourse does a postdoc have for treatment bordering on verbal abuse?
My husband is currently postdocing at the same institution as I am. I am having a terrific experience, but his has caused him mental and emotional turmoil. He has co-supervisors: LittleBoss and BigBoss. LittleBoss is supposed to be his supervisor but in fact BigBoss is the PI on the grant. LittleBoss is a tt faculty. BigBoss has has been known to verbally harass students, postdocs and even first year faculty. Because BigBoss is in charge of a 10 million dollar grant that offers seed money to faculty, his behavior is seen as a personal style. Furthermore, he has the ear of the President and Provost at SmallUniversity. BigBoss in a meeting with my husband and LittleBoss fired my husband from the lab and quit the collaboration. So my husband shut down 2 long term experiments (60day experiments) and cleaned out his bench. Four days later BigBoss denied ever saying this (even though LittleBoss was present) and said to my husband - it's time to get back on track. Let me also add that my husband had his annual performance review and it was above average.
What is the recourse of a postdoc in this situation? I am really interested to know if you, as a faculty, think that a small university would back a transient postdoc over their faculty. Perhaps if a postdoc could also bring money like NIH funding to the university that might give some weight?
LittleBoss, is in extremely difficult situation. After all he wants to get tenure at this institution but I imagine he probably doesn't like to see his postdoc treated this way. And yet he has not really stood up for my husband. And frankly, I don't blame him.
My husband doesn't want to make waves because he needs a letter of reference. The only option here is for the postdoc to leave.
These political threads make the power dynamic highly asymmetric for the postdoc. It would be great to have institutional recognition - it may be the first step to solving such a situation.
While I think that a postdoc position should be a short term (<5yr) contract, a lot of schools have postdocs in temporary positions which means they're easily fired with little/no recourse. It is situations like the one your husband is in that highlight the need for institutional commitment and oversight, regardless of the size of the school.
ReplyDeleteRe your question as to where a postdoc goes once their time is up: the postdoctoral position is really only a period of training following the attainment of the doctoral degree and continuing in that position indefinitely defeats the purpose. Both the postdoc and the PI should be working towards the postdoc's next step, whether that be faculty, industry or other academic or non-academic positions. If that next step is TT, the postdoc should also have a Plan B.
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ReplyDeletevery interesting post. Specifically on where the postdoc goes once their time is up: recently i have been told that i should not be spending time on grant money towards lining up my next job. This was a response by my PI when i asked if i am mistaken to think that part of being a postdoc is working towards one's career. Fortunately my institute takes really good care of their postdocs. Unfortunately my PI does not seem to care that there is certain type of behavior that is "looked down upon" by the rest of the institute. my current solution is to try to stick to work hours for work and look for jobs, work on application packages on my *own* time..how realistic? only time will tell.
ReplyDelete